Today marks the release date of Tegan and Sara‘s seventh studio album, Heartthrob, out on Warner Bros. Records. Produced mostly by Greg Kurstin, with additional production help from Mike Elizondo and Justin Meldal-Johnsen, the album marks a major shift in sound for the Canadian duo, as it embraces a full-on pop sensibility, with shimmery keyboard, slick sound and fun dance beats that inject these songs with vigor and vitality that has been hinted at over the last few years, mostly in their work with artists like Morgan Page and Tiesto.
Heartthrob may elicit some exasperation from longtime Tegan and Sara fans, because it does sound like quite the departure from the indie darling status they cemented in the late 2000s with their releases So Jealous and The Con. But, seriously, while the drums may be bigger and the hooks catchier, this is still very much the band that emerged almost fifteen years ago with folk songs that flirted with punk and classic rock. Heartthrob is a hard-hitting, utterly consistent and incredibly potent album, and one that no doubt will find new fans for the duo while shaking things up just enough to keep things interesting. Don’t be surprised to see it on a bunch of year-end lists for Best of 2013.
Glide Magazine‘s Editor Peter Zimmerman spoke with Sara Quin last week about the new album. In their talk, Sara discusses the frustrations she finds with indie rock’s obsession with obscurity and antipathy for widespread success, what it’s like to work with someone who has produced records for P!nk and why she and Tegan are the next Beyoncé.
Sara- thanks for taking the time to talk with me today. I remember the first time we talked, actually- I was working at WXPN in Philadelphia, for the World Cafe, and you and Tegan came in to record a session to promote So Jealous. It’s been a long journey since then- a lot has changed! With this record, you’re really changing things up, like you’ve done a lot since 2004. Before you even started writing Heartthrob– when you were wrapping up the Sainthood era– did you and Tegan talk about making this huge shift sonically?
You know, I think we always want to change it up. I mean, you mentioned So Jealous, and for us that was a really different sounding record than If It Was You, the one that we put out before that. I think every time we put an end to an album cycle, we start talking about where can we go artistically, in terms of production, and then we ask ourselves, "What works? What isn’t working? What are we listening to?" I mean, there’s so many variables that can influence us. And I’ve realized that – really looking at Heartthrob – there were actual fidelity and sonic differences that came out of those discussions that we wanted to explore.
Our intention was with Heartthrob was to make more of a pop record- or at least Tegan and Sara’s version of a pop record. And so I know it’s sort of a bit of a shock for some people, but it’s funny – Tegan and I were talking this morning about how when we put So Jealous out, our diehard fans at that time were so shocked because we had keyboards on the record. I remember people being like, “Who is this band? I don’t even recognize them!” So it’s funny, because I think we have all this time to adjust and sort of like, get used to everything, and we really live with these songs and we really strive for the sound that we get, and when people just hear the album for the first time, it’s exciting for us that it shocks them.
We really didn’t want listeners to settle into this record hoping to hear another version of The Con or Sainthood. I think that’s what has made us want to be a band for over – I mean if you count high school, I mean, god, we’re getting like over fifteen, sixteen years in a band, and I think that what keeps us doing it is that we sort of sometimes feel like we have nothing to lose and we try to keep pushing ourselves to do whatever makes us happy and is making us excited.
So, it was like an amicable break with Chris Walla? He produced The Con and Sainthood, both of which launched you into like a whole new stratosphere, from a production point of view as well as popularity.
Oh, absolutely. Our time with Chris Walla was so wonderful and inspiring, but I want to cherish that time; I don’t want to try to go back in and make Version 2.0 of that, you know? I really love where that is and I think this part of our career is about completely embarking on something different.
While we’re on the subject of Chris Walla, there’s something I’ve been thinking about that I’d love to hear your thoughts on. You know, Chris is in Death Cab For Cutie, and while they’re changed their sound a bunch since they started (around the same time as you and Tegan), they don’t really get any backlash for it. Do you think that people hold Tegan and Sara to a different standard because you’re women in music? Do you feel a pressure from others to try and stay constant and not change it up?
It’s interesting, because I think there’s always an interesting discourse when people change their sound, male or female, but I do think that the conversation is gendered, for sure. When guys change their sound, often it feels like, “Oh, that’s so innovative and forward-thinking.” I find that when girls change their sound, it goes back to this idea that they must be doing it because they want to be more successful, or whatever. And what baffles me is that there’s this whole stigma against being successful. What’s wrong with being more successful, or even wanting to be?
I don’t understand that conversation in the music industry, where if you’re not starving, desperate and crazy, then your art isn’t authentic, and I just find that to be such shit. I just don’t believe it’s true, you know? For me, the idea that anyone would try to reduce us or put us down by saying, “Oh my god, they’re trying to be more successful,” like it’s a bad thing- I just don’t understand it, like “Yeah, we are!” I would like to have a family and to retire and have kids and I don’t want to have to go and find another job. Of course I want to be successful. Doesn’t everyone?
And I just think to myself, are those things mutually exclusive? Can you not be an authentic artist who is genuinely creative, and also be successful? Of course they both can happen. And yes, I do think it’s harder for women with this, and I find that double standard totally frustrating. If people don’t like the record, that’s fine- then don’t like the record. But what we hear a lot is this, "Oh I don’t like your record, and I know your label made you sound like this” – that really annoys me because I’m like, hey, don’t like the record, but don’t like it and also know that it was us that did it. I hate this idea that we’re like seen as these weak singers who’ve had lobotomies, with our label leading all our decisions. I want both our success and our failures to be properly attributed to us.
I’ll be honest, when I first heard Heartthrob a month or so ago, I sat there thinking that the record was a huge departure, but I also knew that there’d be a group of people using the word "sell out." But, in terms of indie women "selling out," if you will, I think of Liz Phair who released her pop album in 2003, which caused a huge controversy, and she got so much flack because it sounded like the woman who did Exile in Guyville really only cared about sounding like Avril Lavigne. But what I don’t get is that Heartthrob is still very much a Tegan and Sara record. You have the solid, tight harmonies, just like we’ve heard on all your records, and yes keyboards, but as you said they’ve been there since So Jealous. And the songs SOUND like Tegan and Sara songs… just with some different music backdrops. I think it definitely changes the conversation when it comes to the phrase "sell out," because I honestly think this album sounds like something I’d expect and be welcome to you doing- it’s not a huge betrayal, by any means.
I’ve always struggled with the idea of “sell out” because so rarely are the choices that we’re making in any way linked to monetary variables. Our choice to write a song like “Closer” has nothing to do with money, it has to do with ability and skill and determination. Tegan’s not sitting there going like, “Oh my god, well Warner said that they’d buy me a helicopter if I wrote a really good song.” I think that the idea of selling out, from the ‘80s and ‘90s, is just so out of date by today’s standards. I think when I was 20 I would have been totally traumatized by the idea that anyone would think that we were doing anything that wasn’t authentic or organic. And now I’m just like, “Ah. Get fucked. You have no idea what we’re doing or how hard it is!”
My mom went back to school as a young mom with two kids, and she took out student loans, got a degree, then got another degree, and now she has a nice house with a great job and a great car. Can you imagine that same guy who yells "sell out" at us walking up to my mom and being like, “Well you have done well for yourself and you are a sell out! I can’t believe that your sheer determination, willpower and stamina got you all of these things. You don’t even deserve it!”
I think at the end of the day, Tegan and I are really proud of what we’ve accomplished, and we love writing songs. Regardless of what the album budget its- whether it’s a tenth of what the budget for this record was, or if it’s ten times what the budget was, and regardless of how well it does commercially, or how it performs by whatever person’s standard, the truth is that I just love these songs. When we get into rehearsal and we start playing them, they feel great, and for me they fit into the setlist perfectly with songs from The Con, Sainthood, So Jealous and If It Was You. And I love it! It’s inspired us to commit to two full years of touring, and to put together a new fun band with all new production, and it gives me a reason to go out on the road and perform for people. We love it and it’s authentic and it feels good to us, and if somebody, you know, "smells a rat" or something, there’s a million other bands out there. Good luck. Find another new one. It doesn’t matter to me, you know?
Yeah. When I heard Get Along, I really thought it was going to be a while before we heard from you again. Not that it was the usual "Greatest Hits" moment or whatever, but I just thought it’d be a few years, that you both would take some time, live life, get out and everything like that- just have some new experiences. It was sort of a nice, and delightfully quirky, encapsulation of the last ten years. But then you came back right away with this- you guys aren’t resting on your laurels at all, and for me, new ideas and sounds are always exciting because it makes it so you’re not seeing the same show over and over again.
Yeah, and that’s how most of us in the music business make a living- on the road and touring, and really at the heart of all this is the question of how we continue to put on a really fantastic show and give people a reason to come and see us play every time we come through town.
So, knowing that you wanted to change up sounds, how did you choose people like Greg Kurstin, Mike Elizondo and Justin Meldal-Johnsen as producers? Were there albums or songs you’d heard that made you gravitate towards them?
We met with a lot of producers, but really our first choice was Greg Kurstin, who ended up producing eight of the ten tracks on Heartthrob. We were really invested in doing the record with him, but because of some scheduling stuff, we ended up also looking at Mike and Justin to do a couple of songs each. And so it was a really cool experience.
You know, Greg was fantastic and I love that he had been making music for his whole life. He’s been in Beck’s band, and he’s produced indie rock records, like The Shins, but you know he also has made Lily Allen records, as well as Kylie Minogue, Ke$ha and P!nk, and I was really inspired by that. I love that he had a versatility and a wide spectrum of skills. And then Mike Elizondo and Justin, I mean, we were just really familiar with their projects. You know, with Mike, I thought that – and this is going to sound a little bit weird – but I love the Mastodon records, and I thought the Regina Spektor stuff that he’d done was great. Obviously, he’s worked with Dr. Dre in the past, which was cool, as well. We knew Justin from his work on the M83 records, and we knew he was going to do the Paramore album and we’re friends with those guys, so we had been talking about how he just seemed like such a cool dude.
So all in all, working with all of these different producers, it was just really fun, and it was an entirely different process than working with Chris [Walla]. We didn’t just hole up in a basement for two months and make a record, you know? It was a little bit more structured, and we spent a couple weeks with Greg and then we went and saw Mike and then went to Justin’s and then went back to Greg’s- we moved around a bit. But I think it ended up keeping us super engaged and excited cause we didn’t go too far down the rabbit hole.
Heartthrob is your shortest record, song-wise. It’s really concise- you can listen to it all in one hit without feeling shortchanged, and it doesn’t drag, either. Was that a really intentional sweet spot that you were trying to hit?
I think it definitely was. There were a couple of extra songs that we considered, I mean for me, the ten that are there sums it up perfectly. I didn’t want it to seem too short, but I also didn’t want it to seem too long. I didn’t want to put anything on the record that didn’t feel like it had to be there. I wanted it to almost feel like the greatest hits – like every song could be a hit. And I wanted the material to really fit thematically with our other records. Almost as soon as we finished making the album, we were already talking about how we were going to integrate these songs into the show with older songs like “Call it Off,” “Nineteen” and “Back in your Head.” So, yeah, I just felt like all of these songs really worked, and they did. We’ve been in rehearsals for the last month, and it feels awesome. So exciting!
So here’s my take away, then, for the new tour- you’re going to say fuck off to older, more obscure gems like "Fix You Up" and "This Is Everything," and you’re just going to do pop songs only and not admit anyone over the age of 20. Who needs the indie scene, anyway?
Exactly. Of course, it’s just going to be biggest hits, and we’ll be wearing unitards, too! Hell, we won’t even be singing. It’s going to blow your mind- I can’t wait. [laughs]
I mean, you’re the next Beyoncé, clearly. Or maybe Tegan is.
Haha, that’s the plan!
Tegan and Sara are currently on tour, supporting their new album Heartthrob, which drops today, Tuesday 01/29/2013 via Warner Bros. Records. More information can be found on their official website, Facebook and Twitter. Photo credits: Lindsey Byrnes.
